Derek Flack 06-05-07 re Man Watching Car-Park

200-205 Deposition Derek Flack 06-05-07 re Man Watching Car-Park
Processo 01 VOLUME Ia Page 200-205

Deposition: Derek Flack 06/05/2007 Portimao

He comes to the case as a witness following the events on the morning or early afternoon of 2nd or 3rd May (last Wednesday or Thursday) which might have a bearing on the present investigation.
- As he does not write of speak Portuguese he is assisted by an interpreter, G.L.C. de Jesus, at the request of the PJ.
- Relating to the events of the present investigation he states that he owns a holiday home on Rua do Ramalhete in Praia da Luz where he spends extended holiday periods in our country together with his long-time common-law partner of 36 years, C.M.Dale.
- They both arrived in our country on the early morning of 29 April 2007 having stayed at the above residence.
- Subsequently, on the late morning or early afternoon of either 2nd or 3rd May, not being certain which, the deponent and his partner were out walking in the vicinity of their home.
- Asked, he does not recall the exact route taken but they went up from their home to Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva then down Rua Dr. Francsico Gentil Martins where the "Ocean Club Gardens" is situated.
- At that time as they passed the residential block he noticed a light commercial vehicle, (in all respects the same as an Opel Corsa Van), white in colour but dirty, with only one side window in the 'hanging' door, but not knowing the exact make, model or other identifying characteristics - including the number plate. Everything considered he judged it to be an old model.
- When going down the road he passed an individual standing on his left at the beginning of a path and at the entrance of a small car park opposite the reception of the resort.
- At the point they passed the individual the deponent had seen him face-on because he was facing the opposite direction to which he was walking, and appearing to be watching attentively movements adjacent to the parked vehicle.
- Asked, the deponent said that he noticed the above because he had a high instinct for vigilance due to his participation where he lived in England in a neighbourhood-watch in which suspicious persons or movements were watched for and detected to maintain order, unlike his partner who detected nothing of such incidents.
- Hence, he was aware that the man's attention was fixed on the area in question in such a way that he was unaware of the deponent's presence.
- Urged to describe the man, the deponent said he was Caucasian, dark-skinned, medium stature, 1,70 to 1,75m tall, about 25 to 35 years old.
- Adding that the man had dark and thick hair but with no noticeable fringe.
- Regarding apparel he adds that he didn't observe this in detail, judging that he wore a plain T-shirt, possibly yellow.
- The deponent wished to clarify that he was convinced that the man was not one of the many tourists who frequented that area, considering his features and physical appearance.
- Asked, said that, initially, he had associated the man with the van because had looked deliberately at the area around it.
- Notwithstanding, having learned of the disappearance of MBM on 3 May from inside one of the resort residences mentioned above, he linked the two and that was the reason he came forward to the police.
- Asked to justify he said that the van was situated close to the gateway on the side of the building which led to the veranda of the apartment in question.
- Hence, one could conclude that the man was monitoring the movements next to that gate and possibly of the interior of the apartment.
- For the rest, he adds that after having reflected specifically on the incidents he concluded that it was the man's deliberate focus on the area in which the events that gave rise to the investigation occurred.
- Urged to reveal details about the area around the van, the deponent could not be certain if the vehicle was directly next to, slightly above or slightly below, the gateway.
- However, he was certain that it was a very short distance from, and directly in the path of the gate.
- Asked, aside from what he reported above, he did not recall having seen the man before in that vicinity or any other place, nor caught the slightest glimpse of him since the crime that victimised the minor Madeleine.
- The deponent is not sure if he would recognise him again in the event that they should meet.
- Based on the above description image e-Fit #18/2007 as attached.
- Finally, having been asked, he states that he intends to return to England next Saturday, 12 May 2007.

Graham McKenzie 16-12-07 re potential stalker cigarette butts pile

3907-3908 Statement Graham McKenzie 16-12-07 re stalker cigarette butts pile
15-Processos Volume XV Pages 3907-3908
Witness: Holiday-Maker
Surname: Mackenzie
Forename(s): Graham
Occupation: Company partner
Statement date: 06-12-2007

Earlier this year we went on a family holiday in Portugal. At the time we only had our eldest son ***** and (my wife) was expecting ****. We had booked with the travel company Mark Warner to stay at their resort in Praia da Luz. We flew out of Gatwick on the 28th April to Faro.

We were staying at a self-catering apartment at The Ocean Club Resort. During our stay we used the child care facilities during the day and when we picked ****up we would chat with the other parents but other than that we pretty kept ourselves to ourselves and just enjoyed our time relaxing together.

There was a couple we got to know in a nearby apartment, their names were **** and Raj Balu. We also chatted to another couple, his name was Neil but I don't recall hers, they had booked for two weeks but left the resort early.

The apartment on one side of us was vacant, throughout our stay, an Indian family moved into the one the other side part way through our stay. I do not know their names but they had a daughter who was about three years old.

During our stay we had seen the McCann party when the children had tea together and also when eating at the Tapas bar in the evenings. We had not really had anything to do with them other than the odd word when the children were all playing together after tea.

On the night of Madeleine McCann's disappearance we could not get a table at the Tapas bar and decided to get a takeaway from there and have it at the apartment. My wife collected it at about 8.30 while I stayed with ****.

It was later that evening around 10 ' 11 that I heard a commotion on the complex, I decided to go out and see what was going on. I walked round a saw a group of people gathered. John Hill the resort manager was there with some of the Mark Warner staff. I heard that a little girl called Maddie was missing, at that point I did not realise which child it was. John Hill was organising a search of the complex as it was thought that she had wandered off at that point in time. I let my wife know what was going on and went to join the search. I went to search the area around the back of our apartment where there is a little garden with a big palm tree in the middle. I was looking in the shrubbery and the little gardens to the apartments.

I worked my way around the area, eventually coming around the back of the tennis courts and up towards what I now know to be the McCanns apartment a couple of hours later. I was looking in the little gardens on the poolside of that block, I was in the end garden when I heard a male voice, he sounded distraught his voice cracking with emotion. I looked to see who I now know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.

He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.

I had looked up by now and we actually made eye contact, his conversation did not change at all when he realised that I was there. I felt as if I were intruding on a private moment and so I left the garden at that point. I had overheard only a snippet of it. It was only then that I realised whose child it was that was missing. I went back to the apartment to tell my wife what had happened, had a drink and went out again. There were lots of people just standing round looking, the police eventually turned up later in the evening. There didn't seem to be any real organisation of the searching and I eventually went back to our apartment for the night.

We went to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast the following morning, they were handing out flyers with her photograph on. Everyone was very, very upset.

The following day we saw Kate McCann when she came to collect the twins from the creche at lunchtime, she was distraught and broke down sobbing.

We didn't have any other involvement with their group for the remainder of our holiday and flew home on the Saturday. On the day of our departure we had to move out of our apartment and Mark Warner gave us another to use during the day until we left.

It was across the road from the McCann's apartment and the public balcony overlooked the side of their building and the road. You could actually see the front and back of the building from that view point. I noticed on the balcony that there was a pile of cigarette butts as if there had been someone stood there for some time smoking. I thought that was odd , and it could have been someone watching the McCann's apartment to monitor their comings and goings.

It was when I heard that the police were trying to pinpoint telephone conversations made in the resort that I decided to get in touch about what I had heard.

Signed

Susan McCluskey 09-05-2007 re Van Man Carrying Child

129-130 Deposition Susan McCluskey 09-05-2007 re Van Man Carrying Child
05-01-Apensos V Vol 1 Pages 129-130
CONFIDENTIAL STATEMENT
Number : S18
Surname : MCCLUSKEY
Forename(s) : SUSAN
Age : OVER 18 Date of Birth : 14th May 1957
Address : x, LIxx AVxxxx, SUNDERLAND, TYNE AND WEAR
Postcode : SRx xxx
Telephone No : 019153xxxxx
Statement Date : 9th May 2007 Number of pages : 3

I am the above named person living at an address known to the Police.

At approximately 10 to 2 in the morning of Saturday 5th May 2007, I was on holiday in the town of ALVOR, PORTUGAL, with my husband Richard. We were walking up the bank from the town returning to our hotel complex known as, CLUBE ALVORFERIAS, after a night out. We were the only people on the street. We were on the main road which was dark but lit by street lighting.

As we approached the hotel Raymond drew my attention to a vehicle which had stopped on the junction across the road. It was parked in the middle of the junction and initially I had thought it had broken down because of the way it was stopped. I did not have any glasses on but I was able to distinguish a male with a child get up and stagger up the hill. I can say the vehicle was about 20-30 feet away when it stopped but we had a clear and unobstructed view of the junction. There was no traffic and the junction was well lit with street lighting. Raymond then decided to go across and check out the vehicle. We both went over and wrote the vehicle registration of the white 'pick-up' vehicle down on my hand. We had been at the vehicle only a very short time, possibly a couple of minutes when a woman and a couple in a dark vehicle appeared from the road in front of the van almost simultaneously. I could describe the woman as 5 ft 5 inches - 5ft 6 inches blonde ponytail with a very worried / white face. I only noticed she was casually dressed. I could see that the male who got out of the car was on his mobile phone. We got into conversation as he could speak English and I asked him whether he was looking for a man with a child to which he said yes. He said he had seen the man hit the girl who was her and had turned around to see if he could catch him which was how he had ended up here. I also asked him if he knew about the missing child to which he said yes. I said can we leave it with you and he said 'yes'. He was still on the phone at this time.

We left and returned to the hotel. We went to security to report the matter but the doors were locked. We therefore went to our room and had a coffee watching Sky News. We saw the news that the girl still had not been found and a report of a couple acting suspiciously. We could not settle and returned to security and woke him up and explained the situation, after which we returned to the pick -up and saw it and the woman still there. At this point the security guard said leave it with me and initially we did. However after a while we had not had anybody call so we went back down and spoke to the security man who stated he had spoke to the woman who said she had a family argument over not being able to find a child minder, and he had to leave the van there for the boss to pick it up. We were incensed by this in light of what was on the news and Richard asked for the Police and contacted them himself.

Signed:
S McCluskey

Signature witnessed by:

Richard McCluskey 09-05-2007 re Van Man Carrying Child

127-128 Deposition Richard McCluskey 09-05-2007 re Van Man Carrying Child
05 01 Apensos Vol 1 Page 127-128

Deposition: Richard McCluskey
Age 61
Retired

Statement Date 09th May 2007

On Saturday 05 May 2007 at approximately 01.50hrs I was with my wife Susan in the holiday resort of ALVOR, PORTUGAL. We were walking up the bank from the town of Alvor in order to return to our hotel, known as the Clube Alvorferias, after a night out. As we approached the junction I observed a white ford transit vehicle drive up the bank and stop well away from the kerb in the junction turning right, blocking traffic turning right. I would describe the vehicle as a flatbed 'transit' van with a white cab area with white metal fold down side flaps/boards. I recognise the type of vehicle as I used to drive one. I did not notice whether it had any identifying marks of advertising on it.

As it had caught our attention I stopped and watched. I then observed a dark skinned male, well built, dark hair (page 1) get out of the vehicle and begin to stagger up the bank in a drunken manner. I could not see much detail because it was dark but I could see that he had cradled a child of about 3-4 years over his left shoulder. Again I could not give anything else due to the darkness but it was clear that the child was not making any noise, or crying, or appear in distress. There was no movement at all.

I was aware that a child was missing in the area and therefore went and took the registration of the vehicle, which my wife wrote initially on her hand and later on a piece of paper.

I watched him stagger approx 200m up the bank and then turn right on a road into a complex area. It was at this point that the situation appeared very strange and so we decided to take the vehicle number.

As we were taking the number a woman appeared half running towards the van from the road on which the van was parked. She was clearly in distress and upon seeing us began to talk in Portuguese. We could not understand her and at this point we were the only other people on the street; but as we were talking a young Portuguese couple appeared from (page 2) the same direction as the woman in a small red vehicle and stopped. The male came over and was able to speak good English he translated what the woman was saying. In the conversation it became apparent that the couple had observed the male with the child in a situation further up the road and had seen the man hit the woman and had driven around the block and found the woman with us. He said he had phoned the police. Thinking everything was alright we left the couple, woman and van in situ and entered our apartment.

Upon entering the apartment we put on Sky news and became aware of a news report about a young couple acting suspiciously in relation to the disappearance of the British child. I therefore went to thhe complex and informed them of what I had seen and gave him the registration on a piece of paper. We then returned to the area and saw the woman and the vehicle still in place. I returned to the apartment and after an hour hadn’t heard anything so I contacted the police. Eventually I got through to an English speaker and explained what had happened. The police stated they were sending someone to reception. I decided to go down and wait for them. As I got downstairs I could see two police in a patrol vehicle outside reception. The officers spoke English and I explained the situation and gave them another copy of the registration which we had written down. They told me they were dealing or had dealt with the situation. Then at about 03.15 we checked the area again and the van and woman had gone.

I can confirm that the registration was 3893 VL for the transit vehicle. I have also produced a hand-drawn map of the local area which I now produce as RMC/1.

Signed
R. McCluskey

GNR Antonio Duarte 16-05-07

1315-1317 Deposition GNR Antonio Duarte 16-05-07 re Abductor Shutter Murat etc
05-Processos Vol V Pages 1315-1317
Witness Deposition: Antonio Henrique da Conceicao Duarte
Date: 2007/05/16
Antonio Henrique da Duarte Conceicao
Occupation: GNR Officer

He has been a GNR office since 1982. He holds the post of sergeant and is currently the Commander of the Lagos GNR Post.

At about 23.10/23.17 he heard from a telephone call from the Patrol Commander, Officer Roque, that there had been a disappearance at the OC resort, P da L.

Roque was on duty that day with Officer Nelson Costa.

He was told that Roque had already gone to main reception of the complex in Rua Direita and had met the father of the little girl who had appeared in the reception with a friend. Together with employee Silvia (service manager of the OC and who also acted as translator, the father (Gerald McCann) and the friend they went inside the apartment from which Madeleine McCann had disappeared. After Roque checked that the child was not in the apartment, he gathered information from the mother and father. He was told by the patrol, that the father had put forward a theory saying that it could have been an abduction. He was also told that there was a shutter that had been 'raised'.

The witness, from the description and supposed seriousness of the facts related, ordered the immediate preservation of the scene, and said he would go to the site and communicate the facts to the PJ (this was done from the Post, he does not remember which officer did this but thinks it was Officer Patricio).

He arrived alone, in his own car at about 23.50 and went to the apartment (to the entrance hall) by means of the front door (opposite the parking area) where he found the girl's parents, a couple and Silvia. He was told that the twins were still sleeping in the bedroom. On the patio next to the front door, was an English woman who had spoken to the patrol, and had referred to having seen someone pass in the street, in a dark area, who was carrying a child. As the information had already been gathered and given his limited knowledge of English, he did not manage to talk to the woman.

At the scene, he talked directly to the patrol and to Silvia who informed him about what had been said. His hope was that the child had left the apartment alone and got lost or that someone had seen her and stayed with her temporarily.

He gave orders to the post so that they would send more officers to the scene, amongst them he remembers Officers Pimentel, Costa, Silva, Santos, Casimiro and Neto. He ordered one officer from the patrol to stay on the scene - Officer Costa. He then contacted the interim commander in Portimao, Lieutenant Bengala. He then went with Roque to several establishments that were still open and also patrolled the zone, in his car and on foot.

He had contact with several people, individually and as groups, obtaining information about the search results. He cannot say whom these people were.

Between 05.30 and 06.00 he went home, returning at 08.00.

He say he does not know Murat, and does not have the notion of having seen him before Friday 4th May at the mobile post installed at Rua Agostinho da Silva.

The first he knew about the existence of Murat was of an active individual who offered his help to translate some information/contacts with people who arrived at the mobile post, also offering to make a bridge with the OC.

He remembers that on a certain day, which he cannot specify, a journalist whom he cannot identify, informed him that amongst the Portuguese and foreign journalists at the scene, suspicion was 'running' about Robert Murat. Together with Officer Sequeira he informed the PJ to transmit this information.

On the following day, in the morning, he remembers that Robert Murat arrived at the mobile post saying that he noticed the journalists's suspicion about him and gave his mobile number and told him that he was going to discuss this with the PJ and that he was going to have 'dinner'.

No more was said. Reads, ratifies and signs.

Deposition Nuno de-Jesus 05-05-07

161-167 Deposition Nuno de-Jesus 05-05-07 re Pervy Camera Man
01-Processos Volume I Pages 161-167
Deposition: Nuno Manuel Lourenco De Jesus
Date: 05th May 2007
Time: 16H30
Place: DIC Portimao
Officer responsible: Joao Carlos, Inspector
Profession: Domestic worker
Place of work:

That he comes to the process as a witness and states:
He is of Portuguese nationality but immigrated to Germany 14 years ago. He married a German citizen in Denmark. He has two children, whose names are L*******., almost three years old and a girl whose name is L*****, who is almost four years old.

He was on holiday in Portugal from the 22nd of April until the 13th of the current month. He stayed with his mother who lives in Sagres, and was accompanied by his two children and his wife B******, who does not speak Portuguese.

On the 29th of the past month, after he had returned his rental car, he walked (since it was close by) to Mareta beach in Sagres. He arrived there around 15H00. He and his family went to the play area. Between 16H00 and 17H00, he cannot be more precise, he noticed a male individual holding a small silver-coloured camera who, in a disguised fashion, was taking pictures of his children. He speaks of 'disguised fashion' as the individual, instead of holding the camera to his face, was taking pictures from the abdominal area of his body. The witness overheard the 'clicking' noise when pictures were taken.

After having taken three or four pictures of his children, he verified that that the individual took more pictures of two male children, nine and five years of age. These were children of a couple who were at the witness's side and who were playing with a ball. He knows of them as they live in Sagres, a short distance from his mother. He does not know their names.

For this reason, he supposes that his children were photographed to be abducted or to be used for illicit reasons. He began looking at the individual indignantly and aggressively and the same individual taking the pictures then left the area. But even before this, the individual took more pictures of the four children in a disguised fashion, and of others with the camera to his face. This individual also got on his knees on the sand to take additional pictures.

After leaving the area, the witness did not see the individual and did not again think about the incident.

At around 18H00/18H30, as it got a bit colder, they left the beach and headed toward the esplanade to buy sweets at a pastry shop called 'Marreiros', about 400 metres from the beach, in Sagres. As he and his family were sitting (the witness was having a coffee), he saw the same individual passing the pastry shop and heading toward the outer perimeter of the esplanade. He noticed that the individual constantly looked at the children and entered the shop, but left immediately after. At this moment, his daughter, began racing around the tables as they were ready to leave.

Seeing this, the individual began to walk rapidly toward the witnesses daughter crossing the witnesses family as they were departing. Luckily or by chance, the witness's daughter stopped next to the witness as it appeared the individual tried to stop them from leaving, and once again entered the pastry shop and again left without buying anything. This same individual left toward the back of a kiosk which exists in the area. Shaken by this situation, and without the least doubt that the individuals intention was to abduct this daughter, he got out his mobile and began taking various pictures of the individual, from the front, and in such a way that the individual would clearly see that the witness was taking pictures. This did not work however, as the witness had his finger on the lens of the mobile camera. Even though the individual had left the kiosk area, he noticed that the individual had now situated himself next to the wheel of a grey- coloured, recent model Renault Clio. The witness noted the registration plate on a piece of paper which he eventually discarded, as will be explained later in this statement. This individual was accompanied by a woman, sitting in the passenger seat. The witness managed to take a picture of the vehicle which he handed over to the police, and which is now exhibited. The picture is recorded as having been taken at 18H08 on 29/04/2007.

After taking the picture of the vehicle, with the date/time stamp recorded by the mobile phone, a few minutes later the couple in question left in the direction of the Sagres Fortaleza. Thinking that the recorded license plate would no longer be of any use, the witness threw paper in the rubbish or on the ground.

Yesterday, the 4th, he went to a rental car agency. The name of the agency was TURINFO, and is located in Sagres. It was around 13H00. The employee present told them to return at 13H30, at which time the manager would arrive. He proceeded to a bar called 'Rasa dos Ventos' where he ordered a coffee to pass the time. At a later point, looking outward, he saw the same individual, dressed in exactly the same fashion, but without a hat. This same individual left and he did not see him again, nor did he see his car. It appeared that the individual was alone and on foot.

Upon returning home, he recounted the story to his wife who told him to go to the police as they had already heard about the disappearance of Madeleine. The witnesses daughter bears a striking resemblance to Madeleines images.
That very morning, the witness contacted the police and told them what had happened.

Of the vehicle registration plate, he only remembered the partial plate numbers AV and 67.

In so far as the suspect is concerned, he describes him as masculine, Caucasian with Latin colouring, curly dark brown hair that ran to his neck and in a pony tail. He was between 35/40 years of age, of medium complexion, and around 170 to 175 cm in height. He did not have any particular marks or signals and did not wear rings or other jewellery. He wore a cream coloured beach hat. He also wore dark glasses.

He wore cloth trousers and a coat/jacket of the same material which was cream coloured. Almost the same colour to the hat he had worn previously. His shoes were dark brown: the type that need to be shined or polished.

As regards the woman with the individual, as he saw her seated in the vehicle, he can only state that she had short hair which appeared to be white in colour and very shiny. In the sitting position, her head was below the car head rest. She appeared to be skinny and Caucasian. She did not use glasses. He can say no more as she was difficult to see.

When questioned, the witness states that he could recognise the individual in person and from a photograph or sketch .

At this moment, the interview is interrupted to show the witness photographs of individuals with similar physical characteristics.

These were returned to the investigators with negative result, as confirmed in the appendix.

There are no additional elements to offer the investigation.

Nothing more was said, reads , ratifies, signs.

Deposition Jane Tanner 10-05-07

919-931 Deposition Jane Tanner 10-05-07
932 Consent for mouth swab for Jane M. Tanner 2007.05.10
Processo Vol IV Page 919-932

AUTO examination of witnesses
Date diligence: 2007/05/10 Time: 16h35m
Name: Jane Michelle Tanner
Natural Town: England County: England
Nationality: English Date of birth: 1971 /**/**
Marital Status:
Domestic Partnership Occupation: Marketing Manager

Since she is English and does not understand the Portuguese language, neither spoken nor written, this official document was made with a translator, Fi.Ma.da Co.Si. in attendance.

She met her companion/husband about 10/11 years ago having begun to live with him as his wife a short time after.

About 4 years before, through her companion ROB, who at that time was a colleague of GM (Gerry; father of MBM), she met the McCann couple. One of the reasons for the closeness between the two couples, besides the professional acquaintance, both ROB and GM are medical doctors, was the fact they have children, MBM and El. OB, of approximately the same age. Another very important reason was the fact that FP is a common friend of both couples (FP worked with KHM), she having facilitated the relationship.

As for meeting with the McCann's she said sporadic meetings have already occurred between the group, recalling that the first trip they made together was when FP and DP were married in Italy in August 2003. She thinks that all the people in the present group were at the wedding recalling that the McCanns, at that time, had only one child (the missing MBM).

Since she became a mother (of El.OB, almost 4 years old), she went to Italy to the above wedding; to Germany to visit a friend (a former colleague of ROB, named B.D. - she was a trainee at the place where her husband worked in England). Also she went to Australia in Nov/Dec 2006 for six weeks. On that trip she went with only her companion and the two girls.

In May 2005 she was in Greece for one week with ROB and her daughter. It was the first time they travelled using the Mark Warner agency.

Also they had had holidays in England in August 2004 (Cornwall) and April 2006 (Longleat nature reserve). Those holidays were spent solely with DP and FP, and their respective children.

With the McCann's they began to meet at parties, for example weddings and birthdays. She met KH's mother, whose name she does not recall, on MBM's third birthday last year, but she didn't get to know any of the other McCann family members, knowing that both had siblings but not knowing other details.

This was the first time that all four couples had holidayed together.

She knows that, in Sept 2005, the McCanns and the Paynes holidayed together in Majorca, she not having joined them because of her advanced state of pregnancy.

The deponent was in Portugal three time before. The first was some eight years ago and the the second five years ago, both with her husband in Albufeira and both were holidays. The third time in January 2004 was for work near Vilamoura. She came to organise an event for the company where she worked, "Fisher Scientific" in Leicester.

Asked about her private life she said that she never had marital problems with her companion, saying that she believes it is "100%" at all levels.

As for the professional life of GM, that he is a cardiologist, and of her companion ROB, that he works/specialises in 'Emergencies' said her husband never had any disciplinary or criminal action in relation to his profession.

About GM, on this subject she does not knows if he had any problem at any time.

FP and DP were the people who had the idea to come to Portugal for holidays. They chose the time because it was cheaper, and less heat for the children. They took only one week of holiday, where they intended to return home/to work on the last Saturday and Tuesday, respectively. Monday was a public holiday in UK.

They caught the plane directly from Gatwick to Faro at 08:30 on 28 May 2007. The agency that organised it was Mark Warner. They arrived at Faro airport at 10:00. They went to the "Ocean Club" tourist complex in Praia da Luz-Lagos in a Mark Warner bus. The journey was made with her companion and daughters together with the Oldfield couple, Matthew and Rachael, along with their daughter.

As for the Payne and McCann couples, they journeyed by plane from East Midlands to Faro, having arrived around 11h00. They took a taxi from Faro to Luz arriving at 12h00 also on 28 May.

On the plane they did not know anyone specific, allowing as usual, for someone with children to have introduced themselves and make some comment. On the other hand, she recalls one couple on the plane who changed seats because her girls were making a lot of noise, which is normal because, like all kids, they are very restless.

On arrival the rooms were already assigned, having asked, when buying the holiday in England, to stay in apartments close to one another. The only change needed was, due to the children, the flights at different times as said above.

As for the holidays, on the first day (Saturday, 28 April 2007) they had dinner in the complex, making their way to Restaurant Millenium. No-one booked dinner at that restaurant, all, including the children, having gone for dinner around 18h00.

The Millenium used to serve dinner on other days (except Saturday) only from 19:30 and, for this reason, they decided to start dining at the Tapas, seeing that, in addition to the above, they would be closer to the apartments. This was discussed at the table in the Millenium on the first night.

Dinner was taken at the Tapas in order to be closer to the apartments where the children were sleeping.

At first dinner was booked each day having later been arranged as a permanent booking for 20h30 until the end of the stay.

It is normal (culturally, traditionally, education/examples seen) English tourists to leave, for some time, their small children alone in the bedroom/apartment to sleep while the parents are absent, normally guaranteeing that it is done for short periods of time (15/30 minutes). At those times there is a sporadic check, in time, of the places where the children are.

She admitted that on her holiday in Greece she also left her daughters alone in the apartment knowing that there were two or three child-minders in the block where they stayed to take care of/ascertain the noises (screams, cries, or other), incumbent upon to notify the parents who, meanwhile, were absent. Those holidays were also organised by Mark Warner.

Since it was asked of her, she affirmed that she had no knowledge that the McCanns had left the patio sliding door open, suspecting, however, that they did because she saw, several times, the couple climb the steps at the rear of the apartment. She never entered apartments of other couples limiting herself only to listen for any noise, putting her ear to the children's bedroom window at the front of the apartment. Only with her own children did she enter the apartment, in all others she limited herself to listen at the doors to see if there was any noise. She thinks that all the other couples entered by the front doors of the building/apartments, except for the McCanns. She is not sure if they always entered the apartment from the rear.

Questioned, she relates that, from memory, she always saw the blinds of the McCann apartment totally closed, it being a place where she placed her ear to know if any of them were asleep.

Personally, in relation to her daughters, she has not habitually adopted this posture, namely, to leave them alone, having done it only because all the couples of the group did it. However she locked all the doors, also the external blind of the children's bedroom.

As for the security methods effected by the adults in relation to the children, when they went to dinner and the children remained sleeping in the apartments, the deponent clarifies that, in the first days each couple went in rotation to check their own children. As days passed they were asking one of the members who had stood up if they had heard any noise at their apartment.

However, the deponent and her husband maintained regular checks on their own children.

They were always on foot, having no motor vehicle, own or rented. Movements were never far as the group always remained in the complex or its surrounds (the beach or supermarket). Activities were in Praia da Luz and organised by Mark Warner.

In the tourist complex last Sunday, 30 April, she net a couple she knew from Exeter, Jim and C. G., with their son of 20 months, B.G. She knew they had travelled on the same day as her, on a different flight. Asked, she relates that they had a hired car, not knowing the brand, model or colour. He (Jim) liked to surf and that was why he had hired the car.

Not untrusting, she never suspected that anyone might do harm to any of the children, never having observed any behaviour by clients, workers or other people with the group or children.

Of the group only DP and FP knew/had been to her home at the above address in Exeter. None of the other group members had ever been to her home.

About 2 May, the day before the disappearance of MBM, from memory, at 09h00 the deponent had a tennis lesson with Kate.

Every day they had breakfast at the Millenium restaurant and only afterwards did they take the children, on foot, to Kids Club, it being that ROB took El to Mini Club and she took Ev.

Questioned about the route that the McCanns took with their children to Kids Club (since they took breakfast in the apartment), she said she did not know.

At 10h10 the children at Kids Club, her daughter El (plus Madeleine), a total on six children including them, also had a tennis lesson. The responsible adults at the time were Cat and Georgina (the tennis instructor). Kate was, together with the deponent, watching the lesson of their respective girls. The witness left before the class ended, not recalling if KM left at the same time or later.

She went to the beach where she met DP and FP. She and other members of the group made the acquaintance of, in the course of their tennis classes, a lady called O., the deponent's husband, ROB, also knew the lady's husband named Rob from windsurf classes. The couple were also guests at the complex. That morning, after having been to her daughter's tennis class, the deponent went to the beach meeting Rob there. From what she knows, the couple Rob and O. have two children (a girl of 3 years and a younger child, not knowing if it was a boy or girl). She thinks they were Londoners. They were "normal" people.

While she was sailing, her husband stayed at home with Ev who was sick and indisposed. Questioned, she relates that this type of behaviour is normal with the British, namely, it is not necessary for both adults to sacrifice themselves when children are sick. The usual procedure in these situations is for them to divide the time and the tasks between them.

She recalls that after the boat trip she was with her husband and girls, all having gone to lunch at the apartment of FP and DP. She is not sure but thinks that MO and RMO also lunched with them in the apartment. She does not know where the McCanns lunched.

After lunch, after they took El to Kids Club, ROB went to the beach for a canoe class while she rested in the bedroom with Ev. After her daughter woke up she went with her to the children's play area ("slides") next to the pool.

She doesn't remember, but as GM usually had tennis classes every afternoon, she thinks that he could have been on the court. As for KM, she does not know if she saw her during the afternoon.

As usual at 17:00, they were at the children's tea with Kate, the time at which they would go to find [pick up] the children. With Kate and Gerry she went to the tennis courts where the adults and children of the group played and played, respectively, with each other. They were at the courts until 19h00. At that time the men of the group (though she was not sure if GM was there) stayed a while longer to play tennis, the women went to their respective apartments to get ready for bed. 20-30 minutes later the men arrived. They got themselves ready for dinner. At 20h35, as El didn't want to sleep, ROB went to the restaurant alone. Around 20h45, El fell asleep and the deponent also left for the restaurant. When she arrived everyone else was already there, except for Rachael who was feeling poorly and stayed in her apartment. Her husband, MO, was at the restaurant. She doesn't recall if DP and FP were already there. It is usual for them to always be last to arrive, since they were always late.

About dinner, she relates that nothing abnormal happened regarding the checking of the bedrooms, it having been done in turns as usual.

Questioned about an episode where she related that one of the twins, Sean, and MBM (both children of GM and KH), had cried in the night (the one prior to the events) she said she knew of that situation but only from the beginning of dinner on 3 May when KH commented at the table that MBM had, that morning, asked the reason why her parents had not come to the bedroom when she and her brother had cried (the previous night). Asked, she says that none of the adults were aware of that situation on the night that it supposedly occurred.

On Wednesday (2 May), after the dinner that went as normal, like the previous days, they had stayed later to have a drink at the bar returning to their apartments close to midnight.

As for 3 May she related in the same manner exactly the same activities/routines/times of that day, as had been described in her previous testimony. The times/intervals were exhaustively confirmed.

Requested to clarify certain details she said:
To confirm that the first time that she went to the beach with the children was 3 May in the morning. Only on 3 May (Thursday) afternoon she met the group, almost all, in Prais da Luz, except for the McCanns because they had a private tennis class together.

Around 17h15 she saw KH "jogging" on the beach and waved to her.

Her husband ROB, MO and DP left the beach a little earlier they having gone to the tennis courts, it was the night of the men's tennis. When she, together with the friends and children, returned from the beach, at 18h20, they went to the tennis courts having seen that all the men, including GM, were on the court. They stayed to talk to them them for about 20/30 minutes. GM comported himself as usual.

She thinks that KH was in the apartment getting the children ready for bed.

Around 19h00 each one went to their apartment with the children. She bathed her daughters, she read them a story, she put them to bed. Ev was sick and had difficulty with sleeping stayed with her father, who had arrived in the meantime, (on the previous night the deponent stayed later in the bedroom because her daughter had difficulty in sleeping; on this night it was her husband's turn). She left the apartment and went to the Tapas, for dinner, around 20h30.

When she arrived at the restaurant there were already some adult members of the group, namely the McCanns, without their children, who were apparently sleeping.

Around 21h00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, Ev, meanwhile, having fallen asleep.

As usual, the Paynes and mother, were late. A few minutes to 21h00 MO left the restaurant and went to the apartment area, saying that he would 'hurry up' the couple that was already late enough. She related that MO, on the way, took the opportunity and looked in on the children's bedrooms. She relates that MO passed the Paynes and DW on the way, but, benefiting from them already being up and on their way, he made a circuit to listen at the homes, detecting nothing abnormal.

They ordered dinner and waited for the starters when, about 21h10, GM left the restaurant having gone to the apartment to see his children. Five or ten minutes later the deponent left, having gone to her apartment to check that all was well with her girls. At that time she observed GM talking to an English citizen called Jez that they had met on these holidays. He played tennis with them. She doesn't know if they saw her giving the assurance that, on her part, she did not start a conversation with either of them.

She passed them knowing that GM had already been in the apartment to see the children.

She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child.

Prompted, she clarified that the reason she left, following GM only 5/10 minutes later, she relates that she did it because she knew that he would only go to his apartment, reiterating that she checked her daughters regularly.

Questioned about the path she took on the way to her home, she relates that she left the reception at the entrance to the Tapas/pool area and went up the pavement to the corner, having entered the apartment by the front door, which was, as already stated, locked. The only access to the interior of the home is by that door, seeing that the windows and the sliding patio door to the lounge were locked from the inside, it being this way that they are only passable if they are opened, also from the inside.

When asked; the route of GM to his home when he went to check on his children, she relates that she does not know, but that she knows that he, at times, accessed the home by the glass lounge door which was only closed but not locked. She explains that this was the easiest and fastest way to enter the McCann apartment as they have a stairway up to the veranda which is next to the pavement, thereby saving half the distance. Questioned, she relates that all the couples had to access their respective apartments by the front door, except the McCann's since they were the only ones who left the glass door unlocked.

Prompted to say if she checked the state of the windows and external blinds of the McCann children's bedroom when she went to her house, she relates that no, she did not look in that direction, hence they might already have been open without her having noticed.

After having gone to see the child she returned to the restaurant. On her return GM was no longer talking where she had seen him.

When she arrived at the restaurant GM was already seated at the table accompanied by his wife KH and all the others.

Between 15 to 20 minutes later her husband ROB and MO left, together, and went to see their respective children. As her daughter Ev was restless and crying ROB stayed in the bedroom.

Meanwhile, MO went to check his children and those of GM and KH. According to what he said, he saw the twins but he did not see MBM probably because he did not enter the bedroom. As he heard no noise he left presupposing that all was well, returning to the restaurant. MO told her that ROB had stayed in the bedroom.

After having quickly eaten the main course she went to the apartment to take the place of her husband so that he could finish his meal. Her husband returned to the restaurant. Some time later, she doesn't know precisely how long, she looked through the lounge window towards the restaurant area, ascertaining, strangely, that there was no-one seated at the table it being that it was still very early for all of them to have already finished the meal. Later she heard voices of KH and FP who were in the corridor in front of the bedroom windows and who called, desperately, for Madeleine. When she saw her it was KH herself who told the deponent that Madeleine had disappeared, not clarifying in what circumstances, continuing her search. The deponent stayed in her apartment because her daughter, El, was asleep and the smallest, Ev, was still awake and complaining.

As it was asked of her she relates that she did not go into the McCann apartment therefore she does not know the state of the bedroom nor any details of what happened that night. Now, already she had heard many versions or theories of what could have happened, but, for her part, she can only affirm that the man that she saw carrying the child was, in her belief, associated with the disappearance of MBM.

She was then confronted with the fact that when her husband ROB and MO went to check their respective children the window already might have been open and MBM probably no longer in her bed. She clarifies that she cannot answer for them but thinks that MO had not entered the McCann children's bedroom, limiting himself to hear that there was no crying and that the twins were in their beds. Asked if he couldn't have checked for noise at the bedroom window, as had been done many times, the deponent clarifies that MO had assured the parents that he would go to check the state of the children from inside the house. For this he went up the pavement to the main entrance of the apartments, entered house and turned to leave, descended the pavement again to the rear entrance of the McCann flat, climbed the steps and accessed the lounge through the glass door (that was not locked). Anyway, a better understanding of these details can only be provided by MO himself.

Confronted with the information that the dog teams had followed/followed the scent trails in which, purportedly, MBM had not passed the intersection where she indicated a man carried a child, she affirmed, immediately, that she was not lying, maintaining the honesty of her initial version. That, indeed, there had passed in front of her a man carrying, in his arms, a barefoot child. At the time she had not paid him much attention because it is common, at the OC, for children to pass in the arms of their parents between the creche and their respective homes, when they have collected them from the baby-sitting service. Only it was strange that the child had no cover (blanket) and the way the man walked, rapidly, and how he was dressed, the trousers were slightly wide their entire length, being straight. These were an identical "corticine" colour chino style. As for the coat it was dark coloured, she was not able to specify what, seeming to be a similar material as the trousers, it being a type of "anorak". As for the footwear she relates that she cannot confirm with certainty but his shoes had a light heel colour.

As to the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and had barefeet. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child. She never saw it move nor make any sound, thinking that it was asleep.

Subsequently, she had no doubts that it could have been MBM because, through conversations with FP in which she described the pyjamas MBM was wearing that night, which coincided with those she had previously seen. Questioned why she had not commented to KH what she had seen that night, namely that she had seen a male individual who carried a child with pink pyjamas, she relates that she always avoided making this comment to the McCanns so as not to torture them more in their suffering.

She swore "by everything most sacred" that what she said is true, namely that she saw an individual with a child in his arms. Confronted, she demonstrated the distance at which the man with the child had passed her, and that was gauged to be about 5 metres.

She accepts that, at that moment, although the event had called her attention, she didn't lay any great stress on it for the reasons already explained.

Regarding the most and best information that might help the present investigation she said she remembered on one night (she thinks it was Tuesday, 1 May) there were two couples, supposedly English, that dined in the Tapas restaurant. After [their meal] they left, [JT] not knowing if they participated in the quiz game that Mark Warner put on during the meal. The game consisted of a MW worker asking questions about films, namely quotations with the objective of identifying the films. At the end the tables were given a questionnaire that gave the source and a result. The first prize was a jug of sangria, curiously won by the deponent's table. She remembered only the agency lady commented on the the two couples who had left the game before the final result was known.

She never saw those couples before nor since that day. She does not know if they were Mark Warner clients.

Prompted to clarify which member of the group booked the first dinner at Tapas she responded that she did not know. She clarifies that, that morning, she played tennis with Kate going, at the end of the game, to the restaurant to make the booking. She recalls that, when they arrived there, the booking was already made and she had not questioned who had made it. Asked if it would have been her companion ROB who booked that meal, on his own initiative, she relates that it could have been done by any other person but considers an excessively organised disposition would have done it, usual of her companion.

On these holidays, she never met nor dined (along with the rest of the group) with any family or person having the surname "Irwin".

Other than RMO, as already stated previously, only on the first day (Saturday night) was there a group member, MO, feeling indisposed (ill) and not having eaten dinner on Sunday. On Monday he had recovered.

When asked egarding security procedures relating to the children, the deponent clarifies that the Paynes were the only ones who never went to their apartment because they had, at the table, an intercom device of good quality and power/range that allowed them to hear any noise caused by their children. She adds that, from memory, it was the first time they had used the device on holidays but it is a common procedure in their home, as the deponent has seen for herself.

Questioned, she reaffirms that she doesn't have any suspicion to put forward - other than the individual referred to as carrying a child in his arms - she doesn't recall any detail or situation that might be related to the disappearance of small MBM.

Asked, she relates that she does not recall any incident or argument between any of the couples, or any of the group members individually, nor between them and any third parties. Until the 'unsuccessful/failed' disappearance of MBM, the holidays had been peaceful and fun, like all such other holidays of the group of friends.

Interview Carole Tranmer 22-04-08 re Sneaky Gate Man

27-79 Interview Carole Tranmer 22-04-08
PJ-CR-V4-p7-72-121-Interview-Carole-Tranmer-22-04-08-re-sneaky-gate-man(Mrs-Fenns-Niece)
Cartas Rogatorias Vol 4 Pages 27-79 (54 pages)

Leicestershire Police Squad Witness Statement:
CJ ACT: 1967, s.9; MC ACT: 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Ivor MESSIAH
Age if less than 18:
Occupation:

This statement, consisting of one page, signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 15 of May 2008
Signature _________________________________________

I am police detective 1485 with the Leicestershire police and work in the Braunstone police squad in the criminal investigation unit. On Tuesday, the 22nd of April of 2008 I was in the service of the squad between 08h55 and 10h25 of this same day. An interview relevant to witness Carole Tranmer occurred in the interview room. The interview was recorded on DVD and appended as evidence (IM/28') together with a copy of the DVD (IM/28B). Appended also is the transcription of this same interview as evidence (IM/28).

During the interview, Carole TRANMER provided the following evidence:
CT: /10 ' Outline of Ocean Club apartment block
CT: /11 ' Outline of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz
CT: /12 ' A photograph taken from the terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007
At 11h10 of this same day I colleCT: ed three pieces of evidence from Carole Tranmer. This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my belief and understanding.

*******************
Leicestershire Police Squad
Witness Statement
CJ ACT: 1967, s.9; MC ACT: 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Criminal 2005, Decision 27.1
Witness statement of: Carole TRANMER
Age is less than 18:
Occupation:

This statement, consisting of one page, signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 22 of April of 2008
Signature _____________________________________________

I am the above referenced person and live at the address previously given to the police by my husband.

On Tuesday the 22nd of April of 2008, I attended the police squadron in Enderby, Leicestershire. I spoke with DC 1485 Messiah.

Between 9h43 and 11h00 he conduCT: ed a recorded video interview, during which I drew an outline of the apartment block (evidence CT: 10) which I visited on Tuesday, the 3rd of May of 2008.

During this interview I presented a map of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, and signalled where I visited, subjeCT: to what I have already described. This evidence is referenced as CT: 11.

During this interview, I also showed DC Messiah a photograph taken by my husband on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007. The photograph shows me on the terrace of my aunt's apartment in the Ocean Club. I am turned towards the crosswalk, but did not, on this occasion, see the subjeCT: . This photograph is referenced as evidence CT: 12. At 11h10 on Tuesday, the 22nd of April of 2008 I handed this evidence to DC Messiah.

This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my belief and understanding.

******************

Leicestershire Police Squad
Formula MG15(T)
Transcribed/Recorded Witness Statement
Person interviewed: Carole TRANMER
Location of interview: Enderby Police Squadron
Date of Interview: 22 of April of 2008
Start time: 09h43
Stop time: 11h10
Agent that conduCT: ed the interview: DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other people present:
No: IM28
Page Numbers: 54
Signature of Interviewer:
Agent that produced the documents: Messiah DC1485:
Duration of interview: 87 minutes
Recording Ref': IM28A

DC1485: 'The recording is now live.

CT: 'Mmm.

DC1485: 'This interview is being video recorded, it is Tuesday, the 22nd of April, 2008, and the hour on my watch is 9 hours and 40 minutes. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH and I am a deteCT: ive with the Leicestershire police in the Criminal Investigation unit and would like to ask her to present herself and tell me her name, the date of her birth and her address, please'

CT: '......humm... m... ...my name is Carol TRANMER and my date of birth is the first day of 1948 and I live at, ......humm... m... ... (detail removed).

DC1485: 'Okay, and your occupation, I believe, you are retired'

CT: 'I am now retired, yes.

DC1485: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'What was your occupation before retirement'

CT: '......humm... m... ... Yes, before retirement I worked temporarily for, more or less a year, and before that, I ran an antique business.

DC1485: 'Right.

CT: 'I owned it for, ......humm... m... ... four years, and before this I worked as a secretary at Windsor Castle.

DC1485: 'Right.

CT: 'For this reason, ......humm... m... ... I worked as an administrative secretary for most of my life.

DC1485: 'How nice. Did you like what you did'

CT: 'Yes, very much so, yes.

DC1485: 'Do you have children'

CT: 'No, I do not have children.

DC1485: 'You have no children, therefore, do you live alone with your husband'

CT: 'Yes, we (inaudible).

DC1485: 'How long have you been married'

CT: 'We have been married for 20 years and... ......humm... m... , have lived together for 23 years in (address removed).

DC1485: 'In the same location'

CT: 'In the same house.

DC1485: 'Same house, yes.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'You told me that you worked at Windsor Castle'

CT: 'Windsor Castle.

DC1485: 'Did you know the Queen'

CT: 'Yes. I knew her.

DC1485: 'Personally or'

CT: 'All, all, yes. The entire family, the whole royal family, yes.

DC1485: 'How did that happen'

CT: 'I worked in the Royal ColleCT: ion and ......humm... m... m... I was a personal assistant in the royal library and bookstore. I frequently encountered the royal family in private visits. There was also the Easter Court where the entire Buckingham Palace would usually come. Everyone had a very restriCT: ed calendar regarding their duties , thus if anything happened to the royal family, if they brought friends of visitors to Windsor, I had the opportunity to meet them and to show them around.

DC1485: 'And did you speak to the Queen or Philip'

CT: 'Mmm, yes, yes.

DC1485: 'And Diana, did you know Diana'

CT: 'No, I never knew Diana. She was not there at the time.

DC1485: 'That must have been lamentable for you.

CT: 'Pardon'

DC1485: 'Of not having the opportunity to meet her' Not having the opportunity to meet her is a shame given what happened to her also.

CT: 'Yes, yes.

CT: 'Yes, a tragedy, but it was a good experience working there.

DC1485: 'Great! It is good that you liked it.

CT: 'Yes, I liked it.

DC1485: 'The reason for our discussion today, Carole, has to do with the Portuguese investigation regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCANN on Thursday the 3rd of May of 2007. Essentially, the Portuguese police, or the PJ as they are also known, are leading this investigation and have asked us, the Leicestershire police - because the McCANN family are also from Leicestershire - to be the their link in England to the investigation. Do you understand what we have to do'

CT: 'Mmm, mmm yes.

DC1485: 'The reason for speaking to you is obviously the same reason we are speaking to the other people who were in Portugal and who know the McCann family. They are all being questioned and their statements recorded on video, as are you. You are not in the minority everyone's testimony has proceeded in the same way.

CT: Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'And as I have already mentioned, the reason for this meeting is to produce an interview so that the Portuguese authorities can have all the statements that are needed in order to proceed with the investigation and/or conclude the enquiry. This is their decision and we are merely collaborating with them.

CT: Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'They only want us to speak with you so as to elaborate questions or to our interview technique. Short of this, they are trying to see if there is any existing piece of information that may surface.

CT: Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'Are you okay'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'What I am about to ask you Caroline, is to make an introduCT: ion, that you tell me a bit about yourself and how you managed or organised your stay in Portugal during the time of the disappearance.

CT: 'Mmm, good. My aunt, Pamela Fenn, lives in a Luz apartment and we visit her frequently. Our last visit was a result of a birthday gift, if you can call it that. But our trip was in reality to look for a home, as we would like to live there one day. For this reason, we stayed in the eastern Algarve, not in my aunt's house but in a small complex whose name I do not remember.

DC1485: 'Could it have been Pinhal do Sol'

CT: 'Yes, that is it.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'So, we stayed there. We booked a reservation for only a week, and ...humm... on Sunday, we decide to visit my aunt and to take her to lunch. It was at this point that the photographs of our holidays were taken.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'After this we spent the rest of our time in the eastern Algarve to look at properties and on Thursday 'my birthday was on Tuesday' we decided to take my aunt to lunch before our return the next Saturday. The incident happened on Thursday.

DC1485: 'Yes. You should continue and explain how everything happened.

CT: 'Yes, I will describe it; I will describe everything, everything that I can.

CT: 'We were all seated on the terrace, ......humm... talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident. We left when it was around 6h30, after having finished eating and doing other things, and on Friday we passed by car, continuing to look at properties and such. We did not visit any estate agents, and on Saturday we left. We got to the airport and heard people talking about a missing child. This did not yet bring anything back and we commented on the horror.

CT: 'After arriving home, Sunday morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child. I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded 'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'. After this I spoke with my cousin, whose son is at Sandhurst and told her 'What do you think we should do, do you think'' because at this time I remembered that I had seen something. It did not come to me right away but afterwards I told my husband 'Well, I saw that funny situation, you know' that type of behaviour of the individual, with a sneaky aspect: ' to which he responded, 'Well you should talk to the police', and I said 'Yes, but it is likely that it has nothing to do with it'. After, we thought a bit more about it and I telephoned my cousin who is at Sandhurst and he told me that I should call the police and tell them. I did exactly this. I telephoned the Windsor police and told them, more or less, what I had told him and to my family. They told me that they would give me a number to call the Leicester police. We passed by the Windsor squadron but it is clear that no one was there so I called the Leciester police and told them basically what I had seen. They told me, well 'thank you, we are going to get in touch with you, and after that everything happened. This is what happened, more or less.

CT: 'Thus, this was when I called them, that is when you, sir, called me.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'After that, you booked a meeting time so that someone could come and speak with me

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'And I was working temporarily (inaudible) for the Royal Borough of Maidenhead.

DC1485: 'Did they visit you at work'

CT: 'Yes, they came to the office as they asked me what would be easier and I told them that it would be easier if they could come to me so that I would not miss too much work and'

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Then, I arranged a room and they came to visit.

DC1485: 'Wonderful.

CT: 'Mmm

DC1485: 'Were they at all unaccommodating'

CT: 'No.

DC1485: 'The faCT: that they came to visit you.

CT: 'No, no, truthfully, I am only trying to help.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'An after having spoken to them, I received a call from someone in Reading asking me to help in trying to create what they called an 'identi-kit'.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'They asked me 'if it was possible' and I responded 'yes, of course' and they came from Reading. I reserved another room for them and it was in this way that everything happened, and'

DC1485: 'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.

CT: 'Mmm

DC1485: 'I would like to analyse a few parts of your statement with you, if you allow me, and to stimulate your memory to see if you remember anything else in relation to your stay.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'I would like to clarify in your statement'-your statement 'On the 28th of May, 2008'my husband and I, Chris TRANMER, caught a flight to Portugal to spend a week of holidays in the eastern Algarve' and in addition, to look for properties to buy. 'We stayed in a location called'"

DC1485: 'Quarteira, is that so'

CT: 'I believe so.

DC1485: 'Quarteira.

CT: 'That is it, Quarteira, Quarteira.

DC1485: 'Quarteira, in a zone called (inaudible).

CT: '(inaudible) mmm, mmm.

CT: ''We rented a vehicle to travel. My aunt lives in apartment 20, Waterside Gardens, Praia da Luz, Bloco 5G in the Ocean Club. We went to visit her on Sunday, the 29th of May'. Is this wrong'

CT: 'No, it is not correCT: . We arrived on Saturday,

DC1485: 'Well then, it was after, after the disappearance of Madeleine. Was it not'

CT: 'No, no because this, ......humm... m... ... was in April, it was the 1st of May, Tuesday.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'We arrived more or less in the end of April.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Therefore, it was... my birthday was on the 1st, Tuesday, and Thursday was the 1st of May.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Thus, we arrived the Saturday before.

DC1485: 'Let me show you what you said, where I want to arrive, ma'am, you returned to Portugal after the disappearance of Madeleine'

CT: 'No.

DC1485: 'So that date is incorreCT: '

CT: 'Yes. It was in faCT: in April.

DC1485: 'April, this is it then'

CT: 'Yes, I should have read this.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Or no, I don't know.

DC1485: 'It says here, Saturday, the 28th of May.

CT: 'It was the 28th of April because it was on the 3rd, Thursday, when we took my aunt to lunch.

CT: 'Yes and after we went to visit her on Sunday. We visited her on the 29th of April.

DC1485: 'And here it says May, thus this statement is incorreCT: , right'

CT: 'Yes of course.

DC1485: 'Good. Let us clarify the statement colleCT: ed on the 8th of May, relative to the dates referred to.

CT: 'Yes, it was wrong, it was in April.

DC1485: 'In faCT: it should be Saturday, the 28th of April.

CT: 'Sure.

DC1485: 'This is correCT: , of course it was.

CT: 'I got confused when I read this.

DC1485: 'Yes, I would also get confused.

DC1485: 'Good, then in relation to the date, everything is now correCT: '

CT: 'Yes, yes.

DC1485: 'Yes, good. Relative to what you said happened on Thursday, your statement states that Thursday, the 3rd, you went to visit your aunt. Therefore, you saw her on Sunday'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'And after that you went in search of properties'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Passing through the eastern Algarve, right'

CT: 'That is correCT: , yes.

DC1485: 'Thursday, the 3rd of May.

CT: 'May, mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'You returned to your aunt in Praia. Now tell me from where you were coming and tell me about that day.

CT: 'We, we were lodged in Quarteira.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'On this day, that morning, we left towards Luz but we took a bit of time, not much, much time. I do not remember now but it was about an hour or so because we were in the eastern part and she lives in the barlavento region of the Algarve.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'We drove from there until Luz where my aunt lived, ......humm... m... ...I don't remember but I believe that we also went shopping for her before our lunch and we had coffee when we arrived, ......humm... m... ... It should have been 11 or around noon when we arrived, ......humm... m... ... after we went to pick her up. We met up, drank a coffee on the terrace and after went out to lunch in Lagos, which is ......humm... m... ... in the old part of the city. There is a restaurant there whose specialty is fish and she really wanted to go there. We returned around 3:30, sat on the terrace, had a coffee and stayed in the apartment until around 6:30 and left around 6:30 that same day.

DC1485: 'This was on Sunday, right'

CT: 'No, this was on Thursday.

DC1485: 'This on Thursday, I understand.

CT: 'This all happened on Thursday.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'We left around 6:30. It was already dusk because at that time of the year, it gets dark quickly in Portugal. We drove to our hotel and arrived at 8:30, eight or 8:30.

DC1485: 'It was a two hour trip then'

CT: 'It was about that, mmm, yes, it was a considerable distance.

DC1485: 'Speak to me about the apartment where your aunt lives.

CT: 'Sure (inaud'le)

DC1485: 'It is obviously called, given its location, the Ocean Club, right'

CT: 'It is in the Ocean Club, but she...

DC1485: 'How long has she been there, in that apartment'

CT: 'When my uncle died, they had a villa close to Lagos, but when he died of Alzheimer's, she sold it to buy the site in Luz. She bought it because it was surrounded by people and it was easy for her to come and go as she did not want a big site. She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain, but I believe that there is one more apartment

DC1485: 'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'

CT: 'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.

DC1485: 'Third floor.

CT: 'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go direCT: ly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.

DC1485: 'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'

CT: 'You turn left.

DC1485: 'Sure.

CT: 'You walk, as it is a long corridor. It is open at the back part, it is an open corridor open in such a way one can see the front because the back part, if you can call that part which is turned toward the pool, but the front part of the building, is in truth the back of the same. Does this make sense'

DC1485: 'Yes, that makes sense.

CT: 'Because this is the entry, the only entry point and exit point, after this there is only the veranda and the terrace and nothing more. It has been there since 2003.

DC1485: 'And when you enter, give me a description of the apartment.

CT: 'I will describe what one sees when entering. Well, when one enters there is a small entrance hall where you find her room and the living area. After, there is one more room on the opposite side of the small veranda. It is not really a veranda but a passage where one can walk; there is a window and an entrance door. This window is normally covered by a closed blind because it is the guest room; after that is a front door in such a position'the window is there and the door and when one enters there is an access door to the to the guest room and after, her room, which is at the edge of the building.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'One passes through there and there is a bathroom and through the entrance hall there is a guest room, a kitchen and an eating area. After the living area, there is a big open terrace'where we would usually go. It is completely open.

DC1485: 'When you are on the terrace, to which direCT: ion are you turned'

CT: 'We are turned to a beautiful view of the ocean and all the clay roofs of the village, where one can see the pool, the reception area, the pool zone, the tennis courts, and one could see the roof of the Tapas bar. There are trees and bushes between all of this, so when one looks out, there are only roof tops, the small homes and other villas. It is an incredible view.

DC1485: 'Who else lives there'

CT: ' ACT: ually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.

DC1485: 'And who else lives with her'

CT: ' She is completely alone.

DC1485: 'Alone.

CT: ' No one else.

DC1485: 'So, in addition to your visit...'

CT: ' When we visit or stay in the apartment with her, we do not take advantage of her because she is an older woman; she is eighty-something and as you know, it is not big enough for us to stay there with her.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: ' We always stay somewhere else, local. It is easier for her.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: ' And she does not have to worry about us and with the family. She has many relatives who visit and normally they all stay...

DC1485: 'Somewhere else.

CT: ' Unless it is just for a weekend or something similar.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: ' Normally, because it is a lot of work and you know, she is arthtritic and these things; well, we prefer to stay somewhere else close to her.

DC1485: 'And you can confirm that it is block 5G'

CT: '5G yes.

DC1485: 'And the name of, and the number of the apartment, 5G'

CT: ' No, the apartment is the twentieth.

DC1485: 'Apartment 20.

CT: ' Apartment 20.

DC1485: 'Waterside Gardens'

CT: ' Yes. Waterside Gardens, yes.

DC1485: 'Very good. When you look outside, as you mentioned a while ago, when you spoke of the view at which you were turned when you enter the terrace, tell me, what do you see below that area'

CT: ' Well, below, if you look right down, there is a street which leads to the supermarket which is at the end of a small' I call it an alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person leave.

DC1485: 'Very good.

CT: ' And it was here from where he left. After this, he looked to this side and left quickly and disappeared in that direCT: ion. That brought him along the street leading up to the supermarket, or up until the top of the hill ahead. I do not know which direCT: ion he took (inaudible).

DC1485: 'Okay. And did you see anyone else; you know what day it was; the day you were there, on Thursday. Do you know if there were more tourists in that block of apartments'

CT: ' No, that is to say, there were more people in the pool zone. There were more people around. I believe that it may be possible some were swimming, or even playing tennis. I cannot remember.

DC1485: 'Was there anyone who called your attention' Think, think well about the location and where you were on this day.

CT: ' On that day'

DC1485: 'Besides the individual, obviously.

CT: ' Besides him...

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: ' No one comes to mind. The one thing that I do remember is that some celebration was going on, but I don't know if it was the Sunday or the Thursday. There was some celebration, next to the pool. I do not know if it was the families, the guests of the complex, but there was something. The only thing I can say is that it could have been Sunday or Thursday. I cannot remember and for this reason I would like to leave out this detail.

DC1485: 'When you speak of a celebration' was it was a barbeque or a bunch of people in good moods'

CT: ' Well, it appeared to be a celebration, you know, with all the people in good moods and a lot of noise' not much noise but people were laughing and I do not know if this was on Sunday or Thursday.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: ' This detail I will not mention since I am not certain if it was Sunday or Thursday. Yes, and I don't want to confuse my recolleCT: ion with this.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: ' Mmm, but I believe that there is nothing more. I cannot remember anything more about anyone; nothing more about this.

DC1485: 'When you were there, did you visit the supermarket'

CT: ' ......humm... m... ... I am not certain if I went there that morning. I believe that is possible my husband passed by there to pick up something for mu aunt. Me, no. It could have been Sunday' as you can see once again I am uncertain, I am sorry I cannot remember.

DC1485: 'Try to position yourself during the second visit; given what happened on Thursday, think about the hour you arrived. Think about whether someone welcomed you when you exited the car. Ok'

CT: ' Mmm.

DC1485: 'On Thursday.

CT: ' Well, we arrived and went direCT: ly to the apartment. My husband thinks that he noticed something. I think that we went to the supermarket on the street to the restaurant to see if' to find blubs for the light fixture. This was before lunch. We looked around the supermarket for these special bulbs for her. He could have gone alone or' I do not know. I did not go but it is possible he went, but no'I cannot remember. We got together and had coffee and after went out for lunch. It had to around noon or something similar but it was probably noon because we wanted to get to the restaurant around this time as it fills quickly and is well known and frequented by locals. They only serve fish, fish, fish, but she adores it. For this reason we had to arrive early before the other people' around noon.

DC1485: 'Noon.

CT: 'Well we must have left home around 11h00 to 11h30'mmm'

DC1485: 'And did you go on foot or by car'

CT: 'No, we had to drive there.

DC1485: 'How long did the journey take'

CT: '...humm... , it was not very long'it is in Lagos.

DC1485: 'It is in Lagos.

CT: 'Yes, from Luz to Lagos.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'It must have been about 15 minutes.

DC1485: 'Okay. What was the restaurant called'

CT: 'Well, I do not remember the name (inaud'le) or something like that. It is located in the old part of the city and one goes climbing until the top (inaudible) yes. 'Esquitera' or something like that. I don't remember its proper name.

DC1485: 'It is a restaurant that serves fish'

CT: 'It is a restaurant that serves fish. It is very well known.

DC1485: 'On top of the hill'

CT: 'But it is not a tourist location; it is more for local people, more or less, but it is the best, mmm, and it is not refined. The tables are made of wood with oilcloth and the fish, you know... it is wonderful.

DC1485: --Yes.

CT: 'But I cannot remember the name it is (inaudible) or something like that.

DC1485: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'Did you go to the Tapas Bar with your aunt'

CT: 'No, no, no it was not there when I visited the last time, and it is something very recent; I believe that it was built about a year ago and I was there before the Tapas Bar was construCT: ed. I think it was a part of the reception or something similar. We were not there before. It is very new.

DC1485: 'And the courts, did you visit the tennis courts'

CT: 'No, we do not play tennis and we did not swim in the pool.

DC1485: 'You did not use the pool'

CT: 'No.

DC1485: 'And the cr'he'did you go to the cr'he zone where the children were'

CT: 'No, I would not go to the cr'he as there was no reason to.

DC1485: 'Okay. How many times were you there exaCT: ly'

CT: '...humm... ... in Portugal or in Luz'

DC1485: 'Okay, in this resort'

CT: 'A few times, perhaps three; the first time was when my aunt moved in 2003 or 2004 and after that for a week. My brother dies in 2003 and I remember that my uncle, Aunt Pamela's husband, died in June of 2003. As there were four deaths in our family in the first four months of that year, the time of her move has stayed in my memory.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'And, she was very upset with all of it, and I was trying to help her cope along with dealing with my twin brother's death. For this reason, I went to visit her for a week in February in 2004. It was my first time in that place but we had already been in Luz before that when we went to Portugal as tourists. After that, we went a second time with my husband and stayed in (inaudible) a small fishing village about 10 minutes from Luz. We have already been in Portugal many times, but to visit Luz only three times.

DC1485: 'Okay. When you were there how was the temperature'

CT: 'It was good, sunny and hot. At times it was necessary to use a sweater but during the day it was marvellous. Besides this, it was fresh and but very agreeable.

CT: 'I believe it rained one day; it was a bit windy, besides this... it was wonderful weather ' not for sun bathing, even though there were people doing just this but it was not really sun bathing weather.

DC1485: 'The (inaudible) people. What I will do next Carole, is to show you a part of a map, okay, and I will ask you to outline some parts as well.

CT: 'Outline'

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Oh my God.

DC1485: 'You spoke, you spoke of, of, of another man you saw.

CT: 'Mmm.

DC1485: 'You saw him leaving your aunt's terrace'

CT: 'Mmm, mmm

DC1485: 'This, this is a map, it only covers the Luz area and he have here, if you can imagine, or even see exaCT: ly, the block of apartments.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'And here is the pool.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Here is the Tapas Bar and restaurant.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Here is the tennis court.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'Right here.

DC1485: 'This is rua estreita.

CT: 'That is rua estreita.

DC1485: 'The passageway, right.

DC1485: 'Point me to the direCT: ion from which the individual came.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'And if you could show me in the way a camera captures an image. From, from which apartment did he leave and to where did he go and where were you'

CT: 'In my aunt's, in the apartment of my aunt in the corner to the top.

DC1485: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Look to the bottom where you were looking, if you want. You were looking to the bottom to the right and downwards, but this is not towards the lower apartment but is aCT: ually slightly to the right and there is her veranda and finally, here on top, for I would say that here there is a small gate'for this reason it was not this apartment in the end, that is what I wanted to say, you know'

CT: 'It was not the last one, yes, it was not exaCT: ly the last of the street.

DC1485: 'No, it was not the first gate.

CT: 'Of the interior.

CT: 'Where, if you have access.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'From there, there is a gate. It was not this gate, it was'when you leave the rua estreita, is it the very first gate you see.

DC1485: 'How many gates are there in total'

CT: 'I think that all of them have small gates.

DC1485: 'I am looking.

CT: 'Yes, as I recall or think, but I believe they are for all people. I am not certain because I never saw the lower apartments having access to the others, no. For this reason, he was leaving and after looked from side to side and continued walking on the street. I did not see in which direCT: ion he left, and it is here that I think I saw him, but it is not possible for someone to leave from this gate.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'Or perhaps it is here from which the people or'perhaps I did not notice that there was another small gate.

DC1485: 'Oh, I am seeing it.

CT: 'I thought that there was only this gate.

DC1485: 'Thus, here lies the confusion' to clarify things.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'It is not exaCT: ly the principal gate because, as you noted, the ultimate apartment is where the McCann's were lodged.

CT: 'Well I did not know. As you know I was on the top.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'And so it is clear, it was not this apartment from which I was looking.

DC1485: 'Your aunt's apartment is exaCT: ly on top'

CT: 'Yes, it is direCT: ly on top.

DC1485: 'But it is two floors up'

CT: 'It is the last one, yes.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'Well then, I was looking to the first gate at the end of the alley.

DC1485: 'Yes, yes.

CT: 'It was there that I saw the person leave.

DC1485: 'Okay, and your direCT: ion was this way, following the passageway or to the other direCT: ion towards the shrubs'

CT: 'No, it was towards the gate.

DC1485: 'In the inside.

CT: 'Yes, because ......humm... m... ... it must be, there are shrubs and there is no gate there.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'As far as I know.

DC1485: 'Okay, yes.

CT: 'I did not, I do not remember any gates. I believe that you have to go up and around, or to go through a different passage, or something like this.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'I was never exaCT: ly in the area below but I do know that it was this locale, ......humm... m... ... and I told my husband, I should tell him this. I had no idea that it was this was the apartment they stayed. I only knew that which I saw and I was not wasting time. (inaudible)

DC1485: 'No, not in any way. We only want to clarify everything.

CT: 'It is only that gate, that is the only one.

DC1485: 'Would you mind making me an outline, please'

CT: 'Sure.

DC1485: 'If you would, if you make it, if you could make the same one as this block here.

CT: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'And after, please mark an X in the location where you saw this man leaving.

CT: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'And after where, where is the gate in relation to the area from where he left.

CT: 'So, here is the block, okay, then the veranda of my aunt and here on top.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'I am looking forward, here in the bottom is a small gate and here is the rua estreita. There is the rua estreita and there are shrubs here and here, the small gates, they are all like this and you climb some steps or can enter from the right, I believe, to enter the apartment. Thus I am looking more or less upwards to downwards and he left from here' the first gate you reach. I did not know of this one here, I did not know of this one.

DC1485: 'Ah ah.

CT: 'What I know is that this is the gate and this is what I thought.

DC1485: 'And can you tell me if he came out of an apartment or was simply exiting the complex'

CT: 'He was leaving, he was exiting.

DC1485: 'From an apartment'

CT: 'I did not see him leave an apartment. I only saw him leave from the gate.

DC1485: 'Did the gate give direCT: access to the apartment'

CT: 'But he was, yes... mmm... no, not at the last apartment.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'I suppose there is another apartment.

DC1485: 'Okay. I am seeing it.

CT: ' According to what I saw below, it happened here, it could have been the last apartment.

DC1485: 'In your opinion, is it possible that he was leaving his apartment, next to the last apartment'

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'This, this is just to say'

CT: 'Probably, oh it is right to say this because I would hate to state that he was; he may not have been leaving because that past one was a different entrance.

DC1485: 'Yes, okay.

CT: 'A different entrance as a whole, the site closest to that row, the first door must have been next to the stairs.

DC1485: 'Yes and after you saw him leave, what happened'

CT: 'Well, he opened the gate from inside and made so he did not make any noise, I only'it was what made me feel strange about it. He did this all very quietly, as if... you know, when a gate creeks, but he ensured that it did not make noise, it could have been (inaudible)

DC1485: 'With caution'

CT: 'Yes, simply ensuring that it did not bang, and I know some people who enter without banging the doorafter they enter, so this was very cautious, very careful, and for this reason, only this reason, I called you.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'It looked as though he was leaving, he closed it with both his hands, many times, closing it in silence and cautiously with both hands and he looked lastly this way downwards, first to this side.

DC1485: 'So what you are saying is that he looked first in your direCT: ion' He looked to you, but he was not positioned. This way

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Then he looked to the left.

CT: 'Oh I see.

DC1485: 'And after he cautiously and slowly pushed it and afterwards looked to the right, and continued walking.

CT: 'And he'the direCT: ion he took was to the street.

DC1485: 'He then went in this direCT: ion to the street, here, this street.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Along here in this direCT: ion towards the supermarket.

CT: 'Yes. But I do not know if he went in that direCT: ion or in this direCT: ion.

DC1485: '(inaudible)

CT: 'Walking this way upwards and I then turned to my aunt and my husband.

DC1485: 'Then on your map, where do you believe you saw him for the last time'

CT: 'At the exterior of the gate. He was closing it.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'And moving there in an upwards direCT: ion.

DC1485: 'Yes, then, the last location at which you saw him, he would have been, would it be possible that the last time you saw him, he was passing the apartments in direCT: ion of the street'

CT: 'No, I only saw him walking and I did not see him on the rua estreita for when I turned to speak with my family, he was, he was probably always at the the top of the street, and.

DC1485: 'Okay. I am not here to put words in your mouth, or ideas in your head Carole, but it is possible that the last time you saw him he was only passing through, as I have already indicated from the location of the McCann apartment. The last time you saw him was passing by the McCann apartment then'

CT: 'Possibly, possibly, yes, I only know that I did not see him turn to the right or the left. I did not look more after he passed the gate. I only know the direCT: ion in which he went. He simply went in this direCT: ion, in that direCT: ion.

DC1485: 'Then Mrs. Tranmer, what happened first, did you lose sight of him or did he disappear from your line if sight'

CT: 'No, I lost sight of him.

DC1485: 'So you turned'

CT: 'I simply turned away.

DC1485: 'You turned'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'With your back to him'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Then before you turned, he was still visible'

CT: 'He was still visible.

DC1485: 'And you as well.

CT: 'When I turned, it was obvious he was heading somewhere. I only know that he was headed in that direCT: ion.

DC1485: 'Very good, okay.

CT: 'Then, I turned like this and he disappeared.

DC1485: 'This is great, it is great, it is clear, okay. I am going to now try to ask a series of questions that the Portuguese police would like to ask you, okay'

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'Perhaps you have already answered before but what I want you to do, it to respond with as much detail possible. Good, the first questions is ' do you attest to you statement given to the British police in May of two thousand eight of may of 2007. Do you attest to the statement that was made on this day to the police, the same statement that I showed you on the 8th of May'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'This statement is yours'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'I will only, it is not necessary to read, but I am going to show you as it is necessary to confirm your statement and that it is your statement.

CT: 'It appears to be, yes.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Okay, thank you, and the only anomaly is the incorreCT: date.

CT: 'The date, the date is definitely wrong.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'We had arrived on the 28th or the 29th of...

DC1485: 'April.

CT: 'April, yes. It was in April and not in May.

DC1485: 'Well, I am going to help you refresh your memory anew and back to when this individual appeared.

CT: 'Mmm.

DC1485: 'You have already stated that is was on Thursday because this was the day you visited your aunt.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'And at what time, I need to come to a definitive time with the hours.

CT: 'Okay, mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'What do you think, it was not after the... and it was not before the'

CT: 'No it was not late.

DC1485: 'I assume that I was there, I was there between...we were there around 11, 10 or 11. We took my aunt, we must have left around 11h30, a quarter to noon, and in order to go to the restaurant. Now it may have been a bit early. We had a coffee before we left and really strange to me is the feeling that it could have happened then I feel that it was when we returned and were drinking coffee.

DC1485: 'Then you mentioned previously, you said before that you left around 6h30.

CT: 'Yes, we left.

DC1485: 'So, let us recap.

CT: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'How much time.

CT: 'We were there around, we returned from lunch around 3h00 or 3h30, and we were there from 3h30 until 6h30. I know that it was 6h30.

DC1485: 'Then for a total of three hours, and there were (inaudible) for three hours, yes'

CT: 'It was minimum of three hours, yes, because we were talking and I had the sensation that we were longer than in the morning, and therefore, it was in these three hours when I saw him and was looking from the veranda. I know that it will look horrible because it will only confuse everyone, but if I were to state that it occurred during the morning. I am still not sure it was the morning or the afternoon. I only know that we were together on the terrace.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'But the truth is that I cannot. I am trying my hardest to tell you if it was morning or evening.

DC1485: 'Good, you left around 8h30, sorry, 6h30.

CT: 'Yes, we left.

Cartas Rogatorias
Vol 4
Pages 27 - 72

CAROLE TRANMER STATEMENT - PART II - CONTINUED

DC1485: 'What time before this did you see the individual'

CT: 'It must have happened, I do not want to guess, I cannot...it was during the time we were on the terrace, between three and three-thirty until six, when we returned to the apartment, five-thirty or six because it was cooling down, thus, it was in the afternoon, and I hate to do this, excuse me but it was on'

DC1485: 'It does not matter that you are trying to guess, it does not matter that you guess.

CT: 'If it was in the afternoon, somewhere three, three-thirty and five-thirty, because the sun was going down and it was getting colder.

DC1485: 'Well.

CT: 'Well, I am certain that we were on the terrace between 3:00/3:30 until 5:30 on Thursday afternoon.

DC1485: 'Well, we have already been at this for one hour and have made good progress. We are moving along very well. It is very difficult.

CT: 'Yes it is.

DC1483'I know.

DC1485: 'You were there two hours.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: '3:30 to 5:30.

CT: 'Yes and if this did occur in the morning, okay, it would be between'we would have gotten there around 11, 10:30 or 11 and left around 11-ish, 11:45.

DC1485: 'To go to the restaurant.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Okay, I think I am happy that you saw this individual in the afternoon.

CT: 'Yes, I, I have the feeling that it was in the afternoon.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'And it is not just because I say so but, because we had spent more time relaxing; they were talking, and we had already eaten lunch and were sitting and relaxing and well, I am nearly certain. But as you know there was that period in the morning.

DC1485: 'Did anyone visit your apartment'

CT: 'When we were there' No, no.

DC1485: 'No, okay.

CT: 'I am sorry that'

DC1485: 'So our window is between'

CT: '3, 3:30.

DC1485: '3:30.

CT: 'Until 5:30.

DC1485: 'And if I were to give you hints, because you could ask yourself this, was it at the beginning of your stay, close to 3:30'

CT: 'Definitive at the beginning because there was a lot of light, yes.

DC1485: 'More, more than 5:30'

CT: 'Yes, yes.

DC1485: 'Well think, think about the possibility of 3:30, would you say 4:30'

CT: '4:30, yes.

DC1485: 'Well, given the window of between 3:30 and 4:30'

CT: 'Yes. I suppose so. It is only a guess.

DC1485: 'Yes, it is great, yes, yes.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Okay, and you told me that you were on your aunt's terrace'

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'Okay, and what is there on the terrace'

CT: 'Well, there is a table, a sun umbrella, some chairs and potted plants and very little else; a part of the terrace is bigger than the other with the end part longer, more or less. The part where we sat was covered and has a big enough space for six people to sit, but I, I know that I was standing on the veranda when I looked down. I was not looking in this way, I was only snooping to see what was going on below. It was simply a look as follows, for this reason, I was looking below and was not properly I cannot, I could not see very well.

DC1485: 'Then it was not a specific look below, we will call it a glance.

CT: 'Yes, yes, it is very difficult to see below. One only had a general view.

DC1485: 'Then was it necessary to look more furtively'

CT: 'No.

DC1485: 'Okay, your path was like this, when you were in the apartment and walked out, can you see the direCT: ion on the terrace.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'How much time to get there from your room'

CT: '...humm... ... we can there with a few steps.

DC1485: 'Sorry'

CT: 'So, it is visible if we are seated on''

DC1485: 'From the door or from where'

CT: 'From, ......humm... m... ... the door no because he was looking more from the side.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'So leaving the apartment one must get up but if one is seated on the terrace.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'And if sitting next to the terrace wall.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Can you see, is it possible for people to pass through the top and below'

CT: 'You can see this outside.

DC1485: 'Absolutely, yes.

CT: 'Absolutely, yes.

DC1485: 'Very good, sure.

CT: 'People would come and go.

DC1485: 'I can see.

CT: 'So you can see what is happening at the top of and at the bottom of the street.

DC1485: 'Okay. To jog your memory to remember the topic of conversation, I mean, you confirmed that the individual called your attention but after that you turned to speak with your husband. Can you remember what you said to your husband'

CT: 'Well, there are always talking about the European Union, for this reason, they always have discussions about who is a member of the European Union and who is leading; these two talk a lot about politics and speak, speak and after I turned to get into the conversation as well.

CT: 'Because they always have open discussions, nice discussions but ...

DC1485: 'Nothing that comes to memory'

CT: 'Well, you know'he works, he is contraCT: ed by the European Union and is always saying that when he leaves working for them, he has a big book to write, yes'

DC1485: 'Was this individual accompanied by anyone'

CT: 'No, he was alone.

DC1485: 'Okay, the next thing is the description, this will be difficult for you, I know, but try and remember as much as possible even if they are details that may appear... ohh. Assume that I know nothing.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 0'Okay'

CT: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'Presuppose that I have just entered this investigation, that I do not know about your previous statement; that I know nothing about this individual.

CT: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'Where should we start.

CT: 'At the head.

DC1485: 'the head.

CT: 'Because it was what I saw first.

DC1485: 'yes.

CT: '......humm... m... ... he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, ......humm... m... ... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'And, ......humm... m... ... then I believe I saw him wearing a blue-grey T-shirt, it was not dark blue, more of a pallid colour and it was, ......humm... m... ... a type of blue with short sleeves, ......humm... m... ... but I did not see anything below, I did not see the trousers or shoes or anything else, only the top part and he would have, I would say'......humm... m... , when looking from above, he was not short, I would say he was about a 1'78, about medium height. He was not thing nor was he muscular. So he was of average stature. I would say he was European but not Portuguese. He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian. Even though I was looking upwards, he had big eyes, there is nothing else. He did not have tattoos, nothing like this, .........humm... m... ... a person of common appearance, it was his furtiveness that caught my attention, ......humm... m... , no, I can't'

DC1485: 'Could you give him an age'

CT: 'Yes, I believe so, I would say that he was between, oh he was not old, 30 to 35, I don't believe that he was older than this.

DC1485: 'And his aspeCT: '

CT: 'It was clear, he was light-skinned, he had no freckles, he was not sunburned, he was not dark, nor bronzed from the sun, he was a light colour, not white, white but you know' ......humm... m... ... he was not one who was exposed to the sun.

DC1485: 'And when he walked, did he have any particular walk or limp'

CT: 'No, I never really noticed his gait as I only saw him leave the gate. He did not appear incapacitated, ...humm... ' he was merely ordinary looking, I did not really look at his walk.

DC1485: 'You told me he did not have tattoos; was he wearing any jewellery'

CT: 'No, I did not see any jewellery, no, no he did not have necklaces or rings and as far as I could tell, he did not have earrings.

DC1485: 'And his T-shirt, you spoke to me about his T-shirt, did it have an inscription'

CT: 'No, it was a common shirt, without inscriptions, it was light blue in colour, or grey, it could have been grey, mmm.

DC1485: 'And the T-shirt, did it have buttons or was it simply something that went up to the neck'

CT: 'No, it went up to the neck and had sleeves, short sleeves, but not straps, of this type, just short sleeves.

DC1485: 'Yes, and was it loose-fitting'

CT: 'No it was not snug, it was not loose, it was comfortable.

DC1485: 'Did it fit him loosely'

CT: 'It was big but not by much.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'It was simply common, the type of T-shirt one wears on Saturday.

DC1485: 'Yes, yes.

CT: 'With inscriptions or anything in general, mmm.

DC'And he was well-shaven'

CT: 'Yes, yes.

DC1485: 'Yes without a beard or did you notice anything else'

CT: 'No, nothing from what I remember, because he was very blonde.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'But if he had a beard, I would have seen it.

DC1485: 'SpeCT: acles'

CT: 'No, he did not have sunglasses, nor did he wear speCT: acles.

DC1485: 'He did not use sunglasses'

CT: 'No.

DC1485: 'Okay, and for how long did you think you saw him'

CT: 'Well, ......humm... m... ... the time it takes to leave, shut the gate, look to the side, look to that side, a few seconds because he did not take very long to do this, I would say that it was for a minute or something like that.

DC1485: 'And I know that you pointed to the map, as you know, that you were on the third floor and he was here, this is, rua estreita, as you revealed.

CT: 'No, no it appears, ......humm... m... ... it is simply long, because the apartments on the first level jut out a bit, the veranda belongs to my aunt.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Therefore, when I say that I am looking below, it is only really looking below...

DC1485: 'And how, what is your opinion; are you good at measuring distances'

CT: 'If am am good in measuring distances, recolleCT: ing faces, mmm' very good. Are you talking measurements in metres, yards or in feet'

DC1485: '......humm... m... , in feet.

DC1485: 'Please continue.

CT: 'From where, where I stood'

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Okay, I would then say, ......humm... m... , close to the roof.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'It would be the measurement of one double-decker bus which, which is the measurement of a double-decker bus.

DC1485: 'You refer to the top of the double-decker, the double-decker until the end'

CT: 'Yes, yes.

DC1485: 'I though you said that you were capable of being precise.

CT: 'Well, it is difficult, isn't it'

DC1485: 'Have you looked here to outside'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Is it roughly the same height'

CT: '......humm... m... , yes, but two, two floors up.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Two floors and a bit upwards.

DC1485: 'Are the apartments have high ceilings or low-ceilings'

CT: '......humm... m... , no... they are higher than this.

DC1485: 'They are higher than this.

CT: 'Yes, yes.

DC1485: 'Or it could be, we are speaking, if I told you 30 metres, twenty meters, thirty metres, 40 metres, which do you think it would be'

DC1485: 'Feet and inches

CT: 'Ahh... feet, if I told you, then, I would from top to bottom it was about' I don't know, 20 feet.

DC1485: 'Yes, because there we were also on the top of a hill.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Thus 20, 30 feet for sure, I would that it was around this.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Because we were also on a hill. But on the rua estreita I don't think there is a relief.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Mmm.

DC1485: 'And the temperature, you told me that the temperature was cold but it was sunny on this day or were you covered.

CT: 'It was sunny, but... ......humm... m... ... it cooled down at night, ......humm... m... m, I believe it was sunny, mmm.

DC1485: 'It seems to me that you would recognise this individual were you to see him again'

CT: 'Yes, I would recognize him. Don't ask me why but I know that I would.

DC1485: 'Okay, and you told me, when we were speaking of his behaviour, you told me that he left and shut the gate very slowly after himself, that he had to turn. With both his hands.

CT: 'With both hands.

DC1485: 'He turned and pulled the gate, he pulled or pushed the gate closed'

CT: '......humm... m... ... he pulled it.

DC1485: 'Because it opens from the inside'

CT: 'It opens from the inside.

DC1485: 'Yes, then when you saw him leave, he had to pull the gate in his direCT: ion.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Okay, and you told me that he was doing this stealthily, what do you mean by stealthily'

CT: 'Stealth, ......humm... m... ... someone who would draw my attention, you know, the normal way of entering and exiting a gate, one opens the gate and just leaves, but he did this as though he wanted to make the minimum amount of noise, that is stealthily, and as if, he did not want anyone to know that he was coming or going.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'This was very, very unusual and it was this that stayed in my memory.

DC1485: 'This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced'

CT: 'No, he did not use speCT: acles, but he did have this type of hair.

DC1485: 'Yes, I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses.

CT: 'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use speCT: acles and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person.

DC1485: 'Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'

CT: 'No.

DC1485: 'No.

CT: 'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses.

DC1485: 'No, but the hair is the same'

CT: 'The hair is right. More or less.

DC1485: 'I know that the image is not very good.

CT: 'And it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, ......humm... m... , but the format is similar, he certainly did not use glasses, and his mouth was different.

DC1485: 'Okay, but the top of his...

CT: 'The top, his head is...

DC1485: 'The same.

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same'

CT: 'Well, he had a long face.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Yes, this, this you know.

DC1485: 'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.

CT: 'No, certainly it is not.

DC1485: 'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin.

CT: 'Is this what they sent'

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'This I made'

DC1485: 'Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you'

CT: 'No, a young person, ......humm... m... ...

DCc1485'Male'

CT: 'Yes, male, a young man, ......humm... m... m.

DC1485: 'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'

CT: 'No.

DC1485: 'No.

CT: 'From Reading.

DC1485: 'Yes, from Reading.

CT: 'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.

DC1485: 'Okay, sure.

CT: 'But this, this is not like the one he did.

DC1485: 'Well, there must be some confusion. I would like to finally ask you regarding your aunt, Pamela FENN.

CT: 'Pamela FENN, mmm

DC1485: 'Speak to me about her.

CT: '......humm... m... , of what' Her age or her type of lifestyle'

DC1485: 'Yes... where she used to live, you told me that she moved there in 2003'

CT: 'No, no ,no, she moved there around a good 20 or 30 years ago.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'Together, my aunt and uncle used to live in Stratfield Saye.

DC1485: 'Where'

CT: 'Stratfield Saye which is in Berkshire, the border with Surrey and when they sold the house they moved to Portugal. He designed and construCT: ed a villa, not exaCT: ly in Lagos, but in the immediate vicinity. They bought the land and lived there happily for many years until he got ill with Alzheimer and for the last 10 years, it was she who took care of him with the exception of the last 18 months when he spent his time in a facility. When he died, she bought this apartment, and she lives their praCT: ically alone and the family, as you know, we visit her with frequency and she (sorry) goes many times to the U.K. She has three children, all married who also have children. She therefore has grandchildren, but she likes Portugal, she likes the climate, she is happy there, she has friends, and ......humm... m... ... she would never return here unless she had no choice (inaudible), there is not more to add.

DC1485: : So she still has family in England.


CT: 'Oh yes, the has three married children and many grandchildren.

DC1485: 'Where do they live'

CT: 'They'one lives in Sandhurst, he is a colonel and has been stationed in Belgrade for about 4 years, the other lives in Kent and owns a bar, and the other lives in London and is the manager of a marketing business. All of them, the one in Kent has three children, and the other has one child and they, N***is in Camberley and had two children. She had grandchildren. After this is me, I am her nieces and my sister, J*** lives in Guildford. For this reason we are spread out and she comes to spend the holidays and Christmas.

DC1485: 'Is there anybody in the family called (inaudible), any younger member called FENN'

CT: 'Yes, all of them. All of them are called FENN. They are all men, for this reason they are all FENN.

DC1485: 'They are all FENN.

CT: 'The whole family is called FENN.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'A series of FENN, yes

DC1485: 'And girls'

CT: 'No, she does not have girls.

DC1485: 'So there are no girls with the name FENN.

CT: 'Only by marriage.

DC1485: 'And the children.

CT: 'They are all FENNs.

DC1485: 'They are all FENN'S. What are their names'

CT: 'Well, there is'H*** and C**** FENN, they are married and have ***** and C***** who lives in Camberley in Sandhurst which is the military base, after there is S***** FENN and his wife N**** who have a daughter named M*****, for this reason, they are all FENNs. After this is I**** FENN who has an older son, no two boys... I am becoming confused, two daughters who are all FENNs and she will have a great-granddaughter this month, sorry, next month.

DC1485: 'A big family.

CT: 'Yes, a big family, ......humm... m... ... and her husband, my uncle's family was from Australia, but I believe that this is... mmm

DC1485: 'Okay. Finally Carole, I would like to go over with you the photos you brought with you, which you showed to me before the interview.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm

DC1485: 'Please clarify for me, when these were taken, who took it, and...'

CT: '...humm... ... okay, my husband and aunt hate taking photographs, for this reason he must have taken these, I know that they were taken on Sunday, a lovely sunny day where we were seated, as was usual, on the terrace. There are a number of people there.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'There is the pool, there is the overhang, which is not really an overhand but a wall.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'A wall with plants from a distance; like a passageway on the pavement which runs until the building.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'This is similar to what one can see now, and the reception area with the roof.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'And the people between I believe are many who work at the Ocean Club and who also live in the surrounding areas, also in the locale.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'That is it.

DC1485: 'If we seleCT: this photograph, I will show it to you, okay'

CT: 'This must be one of the better ones, If I may say so.

DC1485: 'This one shows you,

CT: 'This, this shows me looking down being curious, but this is not of the other apartment.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'But below there is, ......humm... m... ...the terrace of the other apartment.

DC1485: 'Oh, that one... ......humm... m... m. Where the McCanns stayed.

CT: 'I did not know, but it must have been, they had a type of patio below, but the one I was looking at, ......humm... m... ... was where the small gate was located which is almost to that side.

DC1485: 'That is the gate where you saw the individual.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm

DC1485: 'Where you stood'

CT: 'Where I stood.

DC1485: 'I will (inaudible) see something. Image 50590 okay, that I what I will call it.

CT: 'Ah ah.

DC1485: 'Image 0590 is one of your piCT: ures.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'And you are looking below.

CT: 'And I am looking below.

CT: 'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485: 'And tell me where is the gate, in relation to the rest.

CT: 'Well, the gate is slightly more towards the front, 69 centimetres towards the front.

DC1485: 'To your right.

CT: 'To my right.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Right below where the McCanns stayed there is a small patio.

CT: 'Yes.

CT: 'But I did not see if they had a gate themselves.

CT: 'Okay. And after there is a small apartment below that has a small terrace and was probably there I was snooping.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'Mmmm.

DC1485: 'At what time of the day do you think this photograph was taken'

CT: 'Well, it was... it must have happened in the morning because it was taken on Sunday.

DC1485: 'It was taken on Sunday'

CT: 'Yes, because the sun was out, .........humm... m... ... around mid-day, I would say it was around noon.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'Mmm

DC1485: 'This is good.

CT: 'This is all I remember.

DC1485: 'I will make copies of these photographs, later, after completing your statement.

CT: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'And I have this as your proof and evidence.

CT: 'You can have these because, ......humm... m... ... they are on CD, and if they can help'

DC1485: 'Right, okay.

CT: 'You can have them.

DC1485: 'I will see what I (inaudible) can do with them.

CT: 'yes, okay.

DC1485: 'Okay, I will get up for two minutes and ask my colleague if any faCT: has escaped me.

CT: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'Right.

CT: 'Yes, I will have some water.

DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.

DC MESSIAH returns to the interview room.

DC1485: 'Hello, I have returned. I apologise for the length of my absence (inaudible), my colleague was trying to get a better quality photograph copy, the one I showed him was very, very light, wasn't it'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Does this bring back memories'

CT: 'Good, the one I saw was on computer...

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'And... ...humm... , with the glasses... he did not wear sunglasses.

DC1485: 'No, but if you could imagine him without sunglasses, is it very difficult'

CT: 'Yes, ...humm... ... I know that I have had some difficulty with the ears as well, but... ......humm... m... , I think so.

DC1485: 'This was made by another witness, who affirms having seen a man who corresponds to his description but...

CT: 'The one thing is that I saw him from an angle.

DC1485: 'From below.

CT: 'From below, his mouth was more '...humm... ' very delineated, it was not in this one it appeared more'

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'But, ...humm... ... the head looks good.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: '......humm... m... , but the glasses and I do not know about the nose, it was more... mmm... but we all come from different places.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'He did not have this in his chin.

DC1485: 'No.

CT: 'And he had a long face.

DC1485: 'Longer than this one'

CT: 'Yes, although I saw him from above, I have (inaudible) because I very much like this photograph.

DC1485: 'Oh right.

CT: 'For this reason, I am very good at this. But not in measurements (inaudible)'facial recognition, ......humm... m... m.

DC1485: 'Okay, but this one.

CT: 'Yes, the head, the cut of the hair, the hair line was very similar, mmm... but the individual made him on CD, ......humm... m... .

DC1485: 'What did he do'

CT: 'He, well, he assigned a document to confirm that I was correCT: but it was all on computer and ......humm... m... he took it back to Reading.

DC1485: 'He was from Reading'

CT: 'He worked for the Reading Police, so I assumed he was legitimate.

DC1485: 'Did he leave a card or another contaCT: '

CT: '......humm... m... ...

DC1485: 'Is the name recognisable'

CT: 'No, but it was all noted by the Police in Reading.

DC1485: 'Where did they go'

CT: 'They, they went to my office.

DC1485: 'They went to your office'

CT: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'How many of them were there'

CT: 'Only one, with a laptop.

DC1485: 'I am not suggesting that he, he'

CT: 'I was going to say that, I hope he was legitimate, this was a long time ago.

DC1485: 'Yes, I am not suggesting this, simply, I want you to help me find him.

CT: 'I, I do not remember his name, ......humm... m... .

DC1485: 'You told me that he was young'

CT: 'Yes, a young person.

DC1485: 'He was in his youth'

CT: 'Well, a computer genius, but not one of those weird looking ones, you know ......humm... m... , very much younger ......humm... m... , he was around 25 or something.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'Dark hair, ......humm... m... short, yes, I remember that he was very short, ......humm... m... and was only

DC1485: 'You have a fantastic memory, did you know that'

CT: ' (laughs) Perhaps this has something to do with my past, because I was working, ......humm... m... m'my other organisation was, ......humm... m... m'called Reading because it was all organized by them.

DC1485: 'Good, I will ask you to contaCT: us first, unless you have a preference'

CT: 'I can check in my agenda when I get home.

DC1485: 'And call me after or'

DC1485: 'I keep all my appointments and if there is anything, because when I was working, I was better organised compared to when I do nothing.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'Perhaps there is something about his name.

DC1485: 'Because he must have said his name and the visit and you may have made a note in your agenda.

CT: 'I would have noted it as I had to also book the room.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'I remember this, yes.

DC1485: 'Okay. Some questions that were asked of me need clarification, first you told me everything that you saw when he was at the gate. In what direCT: ion he was looking when he exited; when he was preparing to leave; when he began walking through the gate and consequently, already outside the gate'

CT: 'Well, he was looking in the direCT: ion opposite to me.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Thus, he must have... I did not look, I only saw him leave via the gate, turn and here he did this stealthily, slowly, at opening the gate,. It was the manner in which he opened it. He did not look to where I was, nor did he see me.

DC1485: 'Good.

CT: 'And... ......humm... m... , I was more or less with my back turned towards him, and he used two hands to do this, which was strange, and after looked in that direCT: ion, to the left, and left as I turned away.

DC1485: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'How much time'how much time did he look to the left'

CT: 'It was for a bit, very intentional.

DC1485: 'Like he was stopping to look'

CT: 'Yes, intentially to check to see something, you know, and after looking from one side to the other before leaving; this is what called my attention.

DC1485: 'Did someone else see him'

CT: 'No because my husband and aunt were seated, but below the terrace wall, so that they did not see anything.

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'I would say that had they not been intently conversing regarding this and that...

DC1485: 'You would not have stayed there and'

CT: 'I would have, I would have called their attention and asked them what they thought of it.

DC1485: 'Okay. From what I can tell, this is the end of the interview.

CT: 'Okay.

DC1485: 'Very good. Is there anything else you would like to add, given that eleven months have passed when you first spoke of this'

CT: 'Not really, there is only the issue of what I have spoken about and which had to do with the apartment. I did not know that it was the apartment below ours and ...humm... I did not know that they were staying in that apartment; I was focused on the gate. I had no idea.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'Except in the Sunday papers, as we have seen.

DC1485: ' Had you seen anyone prior, anyone at all, leaving by that gate before'

CT: 'humm... no, not while we were visiting, no.

DC1485: 'And do you remember if it was occupied at that time'

CT: 'I cannot be sure, I do not know if anyone was there because it was very early in the season, and there were some guests staying in apartments above the ground floor.

DC1485: 'Yes.

DC1485: 'Was there anyone there, who perhaps put out clothing'

CT: 'Yes.

CT: 'There were some, but that small gate...it also gives access to the apartments above.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'For this reason, I do not know...

DC1485: 'Okay.

CT: 'As you know, I did not see anyone leave or enter.

DC1485: 'Do you know if your aunt knew of anyone staying as a guest, or mentioned that someone was staying there'

CT: 'She probably knew, but she does not talk much about this.

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'So this'...humm...

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'She knows some people from the Resident's Association but I cannot guarantee that she knew who was staying there. She is pretty reserved or at least tries to be, but she does know the majority of the members of the Resident's Association and when there is a meeting' for this reason perhaps she knew that an apartment would be occupied. Remembering this after so much time has passed'

DC1485: 'Yes.

CT: 'She is very astute, you know.

DC1485: 'Very good. Is there anything else you would like to add'

CT: 'No.

DC1485: 'She was given the opportunity to clarify. Right, it is 11h10. This interview has ended.

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